[12:57] -->| YOU (Kolya) have joined #FA
[12:57] =-= Topic for #FA is ``"CONTAINER" by Lukas Moodysson''
[12:57] Kolya: Hi there andreyvit!
[17:02] Andreyvit: hi!
[17:02] Andreyvit: i'm at the computer at last.
[17:24] Kolya: Oh hey
[17:24] Kolya: Sorry, didn't see you answered andreyvit.
[17:25] Kolya: So you came here via the fucking-amal.com forum I guess?
[17:26] Kolya: Have you been posting there?
[17:28] Kolya: Hello?
[17:28] Kolya: Oh it seems we're always missing each other ...
[17:29] Kolya: Anyway, you might read this lateron so I'll just ramble on.
[17:30] Kolya: So have you seen "Container" or the clips of it?
[17:30] Kolya: What do you think about it?
[17:30] Kolya: There seem to be pretty different opinions
[17:31] Kolya: Someone said that Moodysson took a wrong turn after Ilja 4ever
[17:31] Kolya: While others say Container's completely in line with FA, tillsammans, etc
[17:32] Kolya: I have seen only the clips by now
[17:33] Kolya: So I can't really say, but while Container definitely is very different
[17:33] Kolya: it obviously comes from the same mindset I think
[18:46] Kolya: Ah, I'm going to a concert now
[18:46] Kolya: So see you later hopefully
[19:06] Andreyvit: Yes, I did come from FA forum. I think the idea of having an IRC channel is extermely good.
[19:07] Andreyvit: On the other hand, I haven't seen any other films by Moodysson, so I cannot express my opinion in this area.
[19:08] Andreyvit: It's a pity there are too few people here.
[19:08] Andreyvit: No, I've never posted to the forums. In fact, I was going to express my opinion about your "FA five years later" script continuation, but still did not find time to do that.
[19:11] Andreyvit: The idea is that I like the idea of continuing the script but I think the characters are kinda misunderstood by script writers.
[19:11] Andreyvit: It's not a criticism, I think every script comes through excessive rework on the way to the final version.
[19:12] Andreyvit: So you've done a great job for sure.
[19:13] Andreyvit: Howver it would be much better if the story for the scripts was discussed on the forum before writing actual text.
[19:15] Andreyvit: Also I think the script should be derived from some general idea. The idea of the original film script is hopefully clear, but other scripts need other ideas.
[19:16] Andreyvit: Okay, this is all probably too much to say as a monologue, so I'll wait for your opinion.
[19:17] Andreyvit: BTW, do you speak Russian? (Kolya seems to be a russian name. If so, we could talk russian if we wanted to.)
[19:28] Kolya: I just came back from the shower and actually I should have gone already.
[19:28] Kolya: Anyway just a few short answers then
[19:29] Kolya: Why do you think the characters are misunderstood? What would you do differently?
[19:29] Kolya: I don't think we would ever get a working script if we discussed it on thge forums first.
[19:30] Kolya: That's just my opinion, maybe it would work.
[19:30] Kolya: But well actually I'm not writing a "script"
[19:30] Kolya: It's more of a short story
[19:31] Kolya: And generally I think that a good story needs to be written by one person.
[19:31] Kolya: Who holds everything together
[19:31] Kolya: I strongly agree with you
[19:31] Kolya: that the contnuation should be based on a general idea
[19:31] Kolya: like the movie was
[19:32] Kolya: I really hope the idea will become more obvious when I continue
[19:32] Kolya: After all you wouldn't know what FA was really about when you only saw the first half or third
[19:34] Kolya: Last thing:
[19:34] Kolya: I'm not russian
[19:35] Kolya: My mother loved the Karamasow Brothers
[19:35] Kolya: So that's where my name (Nicolai) comes from.
[19:35] Kolya: I'm sorry I don't speak russian.
[19:36] Kolya: Anyway, I'll go now
[19:36] Kolya: See you!
[19:36] =-= YOU are now known as Kolya|concert
[19:40] Andreyvit: hm, we're really always missing each other
[19:40] Andreyvit: well, the story (let's call it this way, I fully agree) has two problems:
[19:42] Andreyvit: 1) It seems too ordinary. Maybe that's a false impression, or maybe it was intended. However, while the film's story is outstanding, short (and "up to the point", if I understand this phrase correctly) and evolves fast,
[19:45] Andreyvit: the "5 years later" story seems too slow. The problem is not that there should be more events, no. The problem is that many things seem unnecessarily detailed.
[19:46] Andreyvit: The dialogue in the train could have been much shorter, while expressing the same. Dialogues between Agnes and Elin seem somewhat... emmm...
[19:47] Andreyvit: unnatural, maybe.
[19:47] Andreyvit: Imagine your story being filmed. All the described events would happen really fast.
[19:50] Andreyvit: Agnes/Elin, Elin/Lukas and Agnes/Helen dialogues definitely must be shorter. (I know, Agnes/Elin was written by Svensson.)
[19:52] Andreyvit: Okay, I have a hard time describing what's wrong with them. They just seem unnatural, and prabably that's because they are too long.
[19:53] Andreyvit: As one of my favourite modern writers said in a interview, "You always tend to write long. The primary tool of a writer is an eraser."
[19:53] Andreyvit: Yuo won't find long dialogues in the film, at least.
[19:54] Andreyvit: 2) The second problem is with Agnes and Elin.
[19:54] Andreyvit: Svensson could not find a good reason why they parted, so kept saying nonsense instead of the reason.
[19:55] Andreyvit: Surely you had to think of some good reason. But I cannot accept the one you've chosen.
[19:56] Andreyvit: First, Elin changes on the way to being with Agnes. When she tells her about her love, she (Elin) is completely different from what she has been before.
[19:56] Andreyvit: This is explained in a good, long analytic article "What it's all about". I think you've read it too, and I think you agree.
[19:57] Andreyvit: And, this is shown in the film.
[19:57] Andreyvit: So - Elin has changed. Of course, humans never change "forever and without any remainder".
[19:57] Andreyvit: So she might have wanted to go to a party.
[19:58] Andreyvit: Still, I don't think she would have much fun there, with everybody talking about Di Capreo (my god, how is that spelled?
and so on.
[19:58] Andreyvit: I don't think she would get really drunk while being with Agnes (and without Agnes getting drunk too).
[20:00] Andreyvit: I don't think Agnes would leave her at the party alone, after all the changes Elin has undergone to be with her. (Agnes is a clever girl, so she would see and appreciate all those changes, and of course would be able to spend a whole party with Elin.)
[20:02] Andreyvit: Of course, the things you describe are still possible.
[20:02] Andreyvit: But then there is another problem: they are too ordinary.
[20:02] Andreyvit: One can make a story about ordinary people doing ordinary things. It can be a good story if it has a non-ordinary idea.
[20:03] Andreyvit: However your story does not seem intended to become such a thing. And, the original FA is not about ordinary people or things.
[20:05] Andreyvit: But hey, the reason of why they parted may be rethought and rewritten any time you like. Nothing is depending on it currently.
[20:07] Andreyvit: "Ordinarity" is a bigger problem. Do not make them say and do obvious things. I understand you're trying to reach realism, but that does not seem to be the correct way.
[20:09] Andreyvit: All right, that's quite enough critisism.
[20:10] Andreyvit: Many things are brilliant, like the thrown away telephone number on the ticket and the role Lukas is obviously going to play.
[20:11] Andreyvit: Everything can (and definitely must) be made shorted afterwards, but this is not a problem.
[20:12] Andreyvit: Of course, I agree that a story must be written by only one person. However there's nothing wrong in sharing your ideas and seeing others' ones.
[20:13] Andreyvit: You know, all these texts are not written to be just "read and forget" by film fans.
[20:13] Andreyvit: In fact, the initial reading does not mean much.
[20:14] Andreyvit: So there's no problem sharing your ideas on the future story.
[20:16] Andreyvit: And, finally, I cannot stand giving an example:
[20:16] Andreyvit: "No you're not a bad person. But you are careless. You need to understand that you're not just a tourist in this life. Your actions affect others, both good and bad. And that there's no-one else to blame for your decisions but you."
[20:16] Andreyvit: can really be shortened to something like:
[20:16] Andreyvit: "No you're not a bad person. But you are careless. Your actions affect others. And that there's no-one else to blame for your decisions but you."
[20:18] Andreyvit: However the whole point that she's careless is great.
[20:19] Andreyvit: In fact they both (Agnes and Elin) were careless at the film's time.
[20:21] Andreyvit: Just remember about there attemp to go to Stockholm, and also remember how easily Agnes deeply "injuried" Victoria on her failed bithday party (although she was very angry, still saying that is no good).
[20:22] Andreyvit: Note that carefullness (carelessness) can have both good and bad presentations.
[20:24] Andreyvit: For example, when Agnes and Elin walked out of school hand in hand, that was carelessness too, however a good one.
[20:26] Andreyvit: In fact, the original film is more about their differences, so maybe showing some common problem of both of them would be good. (Probably you've meant something else, but treat this as an idea.)
[20:28] Andreyvit: ...okay, quite enough for today
[22:36] Kolya|concert: Andreyvit, are you still there?
[22:37] =-= YOU are now known as Kolya
[22:37] Kolya: You know I read about half of what you wrote before I went
[22:37] Kolya: I missed half of the concert but that doesn't matter
[22:38] Kolya: The truth is, that you are right of course
[22:38] Kolya: About my continuation being too long winded
[22:38] Kolya: And even more about me writing about rather ordinary things
[22:39] Kolya: And even more about the fact, that
[22:40] Kolya: there obviously is no such great idea/lesson or whatever behind it
[22:41] Kolya: The truth is that your demands are much higher than mine were when I started writing
[22:41] Kolya: What you expect is a story that could stand on it's own
[22:42] Kolya: But this isn't what I was aiming at
[22:42] Kolya: I tried to do what Rebecka Liljeberg once said to have done when she was about ten years old
[22:43] Kolya: I tried to continue a film because I wouldn't want to let go of it so easily
[22:43] Kolya: That's the reason for most fanfiction I think
[22:43] Kolya: And that's what it is right now
[22:44] Kolya: A piece of fanfiction
[22:44] Kolya: Not a script that Lukas Moodysson could take and make FA2 from
[22:44] Kolya: I know this sounds very disappointing
[22:44] Kolya: It even does to me
[22:45] Kolya: But there are certain limitations on writing fanfiction that I have to adhere to I think
[22:46] Kolya: One of them is that you can't come up with a completely different story
[22:46] Kolya: People just wouldn't accept that.
[22:49] Kolya: There are other points to consider:
[22:50] Kolya: My strength in writing, if I know of any, is not delivering a short - to the point - story that has ONE underlying message/theme/idea
[22:51] Kolya: My strength is rather,
[22:51] Kolya: to describe people and their actions detailed
[22:52] Kolya: and in a realistic way, as you said it
[22:52] Kolya: And of course this may not be enough
[22:53] Kolya: If I could combine this with a single theme
[22:54] Kolya: With making a point as FA did
[22:54] Kolya: I might be a much better writer than I am now
[22:54] Kolya: I really would like to
[22:55] Kolya: I really hope all of this doesn't make you think that my continuation of the script is basically worthless
[22:55] Kolya: Because that's what I fear myself
[22:56] Kolya: As I said, right now, it's only fanfiction
[22:56] Kolya: It's something to remind you of memorable little things that you liked about the characters
[22:57] Kolya: And it's a mindgame of what could have happened afterwards
[22:57] Kolya: It's not trying to make a point of it's own right now
[22:59] Kolya: I know that this may be a severe lacking of substance
[22:59] Kolya: I'm not sutre what to do about it though
[22:59] Kolya: sure*
[23:00] Kolya: What I know is
[23:00] Kolya: that I will have to write this as good as I can
[23:00] Kolya: And I will try to make smaller points
[23:01] Kolya: like the carelessness of Elin that you mentioned
[23:01] Kolya: other things too
[23:02] Kolya: If things go well the story might be able to live from the liveliness of the characters that I describe and from these little points I make
[23:03] Kolya: As it looks now it won't have it's own new big them though
[23:05] Kolya: Even if I had such a thing to say, which I don't, I feel I should write a story that has nothing to do with Elin and Agnes then
[23:07] Andreyvit: Hmm. Okay, you maybe quite right that you should adhere to the style you're best at, rather than a style similar to the original script or smt.
[23:07] Andreyvit: I even think that you are abslutely right.
[23:07] Kolya:
[23:07] Kolya: Hey
[23:07] Kolya: You're here
[23:07] Kolya: We meet after all!
[23:08] Andreyvit: Regarding the fanfiction, I don't see a single reason for it not to be a worthless story on it's own, while still being a continuation of the original story with same characters having same qualities.
[23:08] Andreyvit: Yes, hi
[23:08] Andreyvit: oops
[23:08] Andreyvit: not to be a worthful
[23:09] Kolya: Yeah, but you know Moodysson created these characters for a purpose
[23:09] Andreyvit: yes, but they are lively characters.
[23:10] Andreyvit: like people, they can go through multiple lessons during their life.
[23:10] Kolya: It might easily feel like you made an effort to give another lesson by using them again
[23:10] Kolya: It could be of course
[23:10] Kolya: But what?
[23:11] Andreyvit: well, just a few thoughts:
[23:11] Andreyvit: the original story concentrates on them becoming together. this lacks a lot of well-known problems which can be stated as "staying together"
[23:12] Andreyvit: in fact, accoring to the continuation, they did not manage to stay together.
[23:13] Andreyvit: well, so, the original story is about a short-lived, highly motivated decision taken fast. (well, a sort of; I know this sounds like nonsense)
[23:13] Andreyvit: what is left behind is how to cope with such decisions in a long term
[23:14] Kolya: Unfortunately that's the boring part usually
[23:14] Kolya: That is never depicted in movies
[23:14] Kolya: possibly for a reason
[23:14] Andreyvit: Hmm. If you consider the whole life "the boring part", then it is.
[23:14] Kolya: Haha, no
[23:14] Andreyvit: And I do not agree; at least not in literature.
[23:15] Kolya: But what happens ater a happyend is not usually of interest to filmamkers
[23:15] Andreyvit: So, maybe what should be shown is that the whole life should not really be a boring part?
[23:15] Kolya: Okay, yeah
[23:15] Andreyvit: Well, that's a holywoodish approach.
[23:15] Kolya: True
[23:15] Andreyvit: Regarding a happy end.
[23:15] Andreyvit: Moodysson inserted the final O-boy scene just to escape tat.
[23:15] Andreyvit: \\ that
[23:16] Kolya: Yeah I know. Still a story needs problems
[23:16] Kolya: To continue
[23:16] Andreyvit: So, for Elin the life became boring again. Did it?
[23:16] Kolya: You can't write a story about two people staying together forever
[23:16] Andreyvit: According to the present script.
[23:16] Kolya: Yeah
[23:16] Andreyvit: And for Agnes?
[23:16] Kolya: Wait
[23:17] Kolya: Elin first
[23:17] Andreyvit: This is supposed to be a difficult question.
[23:17] Andreyvit: All right. Elin. I think the script is missing something on what she's been doing for these 5 years.
[23:17] Kolya: Okay, to me Elin wasn't a lesbian. She wanted to be different. And onbe of the things she tries is becoming a lesbian. It's a game for her.
[23:18] Andreyvit: Was it just her nightmare coming true?
[23:18] Andreyvit: Well... to me she's not lesbian, yes.
[23:18] Andreyvit: But, I do not agree that she just wanted to be different.
[23:18] Kolya: She admired Agnes because she felt that Agnes really was different
[23:18] Andreyvit: BTW, did you read that article, at
http://people.freenet.de/what-its-all-about/?
[23:19] Kolya: Yeah sure
[23:19] Kolya: And the way Elin talks about lesbianism makes it pretty clear that she has no idea about it
[23:19] Andreyvit: Well, then: Elin did not only want to be different, or did not really want to be different. Better said she wanted to be free and to "find herself" (her identity, as it's called there).
[23:20] Andreyvit: She stayed with Agnes because Agnes was the only one who understood her and who could be her friend.
[23:20] Kolya: She said: "I want to be weird"
[23:20] Andreyvit: You know, all this friend/love stuff always tends to mess up.
[23:20] Andreyvit: Well, she also said she wants to rob a pensioneer.
[23:21] Kolya: Haha okay yeah
[23:21] Andreyvit: Yes, she wanted to be different.
[23:21] Andreyvit: But that... well, that's what she thought would have helped her.
[23:21] Andreyvit: But what she really needed was understanding and so forth.
[23:21] Kolya: Becoming a lesbian?
[23:21] Andreyvit: No, being different.
[23:21] Kolya: I see
[23:22] Kolya: But Johan tried to be understanding certainly
[23:22] Andreyvit: But he could not, probably.
[23:22] Kolya: What couldn't Johan understand
[23:22] Andreyvit: He's not smart enough.
[23:22] Kolya: No!
[23:22] Andreyvit: Elin is not educated, but she's kinda smart or at least original.
[23:23] Andreyvit: Do you like Johan?
[23:23] Kolya: Well yes
[23:23] Kolya: Johan is a sensible guy
[23:23] Kolya: He's not brave tho
[23:23] Andreyvit: Yes, he's sensible, and somewhat better than others.
[23:24] Andreyvit: Not only he's not brave, he also does not want to find his identity etc
[23:24] Kolya: He goes with the crowd because he couldn't stand being different
[23:24] Andreyvit: Well, probably that's the same thing I want to say, only in different terms.
[23:25] Kolya: Yeah
[23:25] Kolya: Anyway, if Elin just needed affection, Johan had plenty for her
[23:25] Andreyvit: And I agree that being surrounded by different pople he would be a much better guy.
[23:26] Andreyvit: No, she needed that someone ould understand her, primarily.
[23:26] Kolya: Understand what?
[23:26] Andreyvit: He couldn't - or maybe could, but didn't.
[23:27] Andreyvit: Understanding means some kind of comprehension of the person's nature.
[23:28] Kolya: Yeah but was it really that set Elin apart from the crowd except her will to be different?
[23:28] Andreyvit: Anyway, I do not accept that Elin *just* wants to be different, and that is all.
[23:28] Andreyvit: I mean, not any kind of difference would suit her.
[23:29] Andreyvit: So, the point is not in the difference itself;
[23:29] Kolya: Okay, I hope ther really is more to it. But what would you say it is?
[23:29] Andreyvit: Elin wants to behave, express feelings, say things in a way that does not suit her surrounders.
[23:30] Andreyvit: So, mostly she wants to be herself,
[23:30] Andreyvit: and "herself" is different from many people expect her to be.
[23:30] Andreyvit: \\ from what many ...
[23:31] Kolya: Okay, but that's what almost everbody wants to. Be regarded as a person of your own, be understood. That's nothing really special, is it?
[23:32] Kolya: Agnes on the contrary *is* special.
[23:33] Andreyvit: Yes, everybody wants it. But somehow people tend to forget about this wish. This has something to do with crowding.
[23:33] Kolya: Mmmh, you might have a point there.
[23:33] Andreyvit: I think every person is special on his own, until he is swallowed by a crowd.
[23:33] Andreyvit: So Elin and Agnes are just normal.
[23:34] Kolya: They do unusal things though.
[23:34] Andreyvit: Well... hm... really?
[23:34] Kolya: Well unusal for the crowd they live in
[23:35] Andreyvit: I've seen many people behaving originally, and tend to consider it absolutely normal.
[23:35] Andreyvit: Yes, of course.
[23:35] Kolya: Okay, I think we basically agree on Elin.
[23:35] Andreyvit: And that's the reason of misunderstanding.
[23:35] Andreyvit: Yes.
[23:35] Kolya: What about Agnes?
[23:35] Andreyvit: You mean is she a lesbian?
[23:36] Andreyvit: I think the film was indended to prove that she is.
[23:36] Kolya: I loved her the most when I first saw the film, she reminded me more of myself then Elin.
[23:37] Andreyvit: I can say that I do not understand "lesbianess". I do not know if it's fixed or if it can be changes.
[23:37] Andreyvit: Well... I can say that I can identity myself with both of them.
[23:37] Kolya: It's fixed just like heterosexuality
[23:37] Andreyvit: But many sources say that girls are generally bisexual.
[23:37] Kolya: Uoh
[23:38] Andreyvit: Okay, I do not know, so let's decide Agnes is lesbi.
[23:38] Kolya: People are generally bisexual then
[23:38] Kolya: Yeah, well the movie makes an effort to prove this
[23:38] Andreyvit: yes
[23:38] Kolya: via the masturbation scene
[23:39] Andreyvit: yes.
[23:39] Kolya: Anyway, Agnes is very vulnerable but also very strong
[23:39] Andreyvit: And does not have any friends
[23:39] Kolya: She's not angel
[23:39] Andreyvit: (just like Elin)
[23:40] Kolya: Well Elin has a lot of friends, just no real friends
[23:40] Andreyvit: Yes, she's not. Nobody is.
[23:40] Kolya: apart from her sis maybe
[23:40] Andreyvit: Well, friends will mean "real friends" from now on.
[23:40] Kolya: k
[23:40] Andreyvit: ?
[23:40] Kolya: Okay
[23:40] Kolya: But it's a different situation for her
[23:41] Kolya: They both may have no friends
[23:41] Kolya: But their situations are very different
[23:41] Andreyvit: Of course it's different; she's much much more isolated, and more lonely.
[23:41] Kolya: Agnes?
[23:41] Andreyvit: yes
[23:42] Andreyvit: probably.
[23:42] Kolya: Yeah, but seeing Elin at the party drinking she's almost the same. She's the loner in the crowd.
[23:42] Kolya: Okay, I think we got it that they both are lonely.
[23:42] Kolya: And have no friends
[23:43] Andreyvit: yeah: they do not have real friends, noone believes in them (but, note, Agnes has a good father)
[23:43] Kolya: ANd Elin has Jessica
[23:43] Andreyvit: Elin does not have a father at all, and that probably means something.
[23:43] Kolya: Why?
[23:43] Andreyvit: But it does not mean much here
[23:43] Kolya: Whyt do you think it means?
[23:43] Kolya: Okay
[23:43] Andreyvit: Moodysson's script had a separate idea on parent-children relations.
[23:44] Andreyvit: That's from tat scope.
[23:44] Andreyvit: So, what is different then?
[23:44] Kolya: Sorry, didn't get what you meant by your last statement.
[23:45] Kolya: "That's from tat scope."
[23:45] Andreyvit: Never mind. What's different between Elin and Agnes?
[23:45] Kolya: Well Elin is bored with her "friends" and with parties etc
[23:46] Andreyvit: And Agnes is bored with her life, too.
[23:46] Andreyvit: Okay, we're searching the wrong way.
[23:46] Kolya: Yeah, but she rules out even going to a party
[23:46] Andreyvit: The situations are in fact similar. They are different themselves.
[23:46] Andreyvit: Probably... The should be different.
[23:46] Andreyvit: \\ they
[23:47] Kolya: I'll be right back.
[23:48] Andreyvit: This is a difficult question in fact. Every two people are similar in many ways, much more than they'd expect. For any two people it might always seem that they are very-very similar from the first glance.
[23:48] Andreyvit: The differences appear after they are in touch for some time.
[23:48] Andreyvit: I don't think the film is a right place to search for them, as it shows a short period of time.
[23:50] Andreyvit: Elin and Agnes are in similar situations of alienation (which is physical for Agnes and only mental for Elin).
[23:50] Kolya: Well they come from very different backgrounds. Elin has no father, lots of false friends, she's popular, she's not a lesbian
[23:50] Kolya: But yeah exactly
[23:50] Andreyvit: There's no surprise they become quite similar themselves.
[23:51] Kolya: The alineation is the common theme
[23:51] Andreyvit: People tend to become similar when they are in similar situations.
[23:51] Andreyvit: However it does not hide people's nature, which is usually different.
[23:51] Andreyvit: Or, better said, it hides, but just for some time.
[23:51] Andreyvit: So, when they became together, Elin and Agnes were really similar.
[23:52] Andreyvit: After some time, there appeared many differences, which is again no surprise.
[23:52] Andreyvit: Many differences come from background, and some come from somewhere else (maybe), but that does not matter.
[23:53] Kolya: But that's exactly what I thought of when I said that Elin cheated with Johan.
[23:53] Andreyvit: Still, they must have had a great time together.
[23:53] Kolya: They were similar for some time
[23:53] Andreyvit: Okay, now I think it was possible.
[23:53] Kolya: and then old habits broke out again
[23:53] Andreyvit: Well...
[23:54] Andreyvit: I wouldn't say "habits". Habits are not that stable, they must have changed.
[23:54] Andreyvit: But Elin might become uncertain about her secuality kind.
[23:54] Kolya: Okay, call it nature. elin is a partygoer
[23:54] Andreyvit: \\ sexuality
[23:54] Andreyvit: Even my dictionary did not help with that.
[23:55] Kolya: Whereas Agnes is by nature a shy type
[23:55] Andreyvit: oh
[23:55] Andreyvit: partygoer = party goer
[23:55] Kolya: Yeah
[23:56] Kolya: I'm not a partygoer myself
[23:56] Kolya: No wonder I identify with Agnes
[23:56] Andreyvit: Well, not sure about that (partygoingness and shyness might be a result of their forced lifestyle, and can change over time - though it's hard to change)
[23:57] Kolya: I don't think these kind of things really change - buta that's just from experience
[23:57] Andreyvit: I'm not, too. I was really shy until about 15, and then I moved to another school, where I became quite different and was a leader.
[23:57] Kolya: Different experiece for you then
[23:57] Andreyvit: However I still never went to any parties, I just don't like that dumb music.
[23:58] Andreyvit: So, I can say people change. Or maybe not; I was forced to be shy by the crowed, and was lucky to escape it then.
[23:58] Andreyvit: So I don't really know who Agnes is.
[23:59] Andreyvit: She can show a finger to the girls in a school canteen.
[23:59] Andreyvit: So she's at least not too shy.
[00:00] Kolya: Yeah but then she can't take it and tries to kill herself
[00:00] Andreyvit: Maybe she's lost a hope, or something like that.
[00:00] Andreyvit: One can't live that way forever.
[00:00] Kolya: Definitely because of Elin's forced kiss
[00:01] Kolya: She could take it from the stupid girls in the cantina
[00:01] Kolya: but not from Elin
[00:01] Kolya: That's when she loses all hope
[00:01] Andreyvit: well, yeah
[00:02] Kolya: That's something I wonder about a lot.
[00:02] Kolya: She didn't really know Elin.
[00:02] Andreyvit: and?
[00:02] Kolya: Before they meton her birthday.
[00:02] Kolya: And still she has such a high opinion of her.
[00:03] Kolya: That she wants to kill herself when Elin disappoints her
[00:03] Andreyvit: But she loved her, and she saw her being different from the others.
[00:03] Andreyvit: So she could have a high opinion.
[00:03] Kolya: She loved her, yeah. I think that's the best explanation.
[00:04] Andreyvit: Btw, the interesting point is how did it start.
[00:04] Kolya: Wait a monet
[00:04] Andreyvit: I have no ideas.
[00:04] Kolya: moment*
[00:05] Kolya: Why did Agnes fall in love with Elin? Just because she thought Elin was different from the others? How could she know?
[00:05] Andreyvit: I'm talking about exactly that.
[00:05] Andreyvit: They were in different classes.
[00:05] Kolya: Yeah, Elin was one class below her
[00:05] Andreyvit: Probably it was some accident that she has noticed Elin.
[00:06] Kolya: Or maybe ...
[00:06] Andreyvit: And then started to watch her....
[00:06] Kolya: it was just that Elin looks mighty fine
[00:06] Andreyvit: Or, it maybe just very simple: Elin was the best of all other girls in the school, both in appearance and in behaviour.
[00:07] Kolya: Yeah, I think that's it
[00:07] Andreyvit: Maybe Agnes would never love her if they we "in Stockholm" (in a better place with many more original people)
[00:07] Andreyvit: So, now. I think it's quite natural that Elin started to doubt that she's a lesbian.
[00:07] Kolya: Ha!
[00:07] Andreyvit: Probably that was a point they've discussed several times before they parted.
[00:08] Kolya: That's an interesting point!
[00:08] Kolya: "Agnes would never love her if they we "in Stockholm" (in a better place with many more original people)"
[00:08] Andreyvit: Maybe that very day it took another round.
[00:08] Kolya: Thanks for that!
[00:09] Kolya: Because that is exactly what happens when they meet in Stockholm
[00:09] Andreyvit: Well, that's an interesting point. Still, it not all the truth.
[00:09] Kolya: Elin is no special school queen anymore
[00:09] Andreyvit: She would not have noticed her probably.
[00:09] Andreyvit: BUT
[00:10] Andreyvit: She's already noticed her. And that's a big difference, between falling in love with someone unknown and with someone known.
[00:10] Kolya: Yeah that's true. But Agnes will surely notice the change when they meet in Stockholm.
[00:11] Andreyvit: what change?
[00:11] Kolya: While Elin used to be the only interesting/beautiful person in Amal ...
[00:12] Kolya: she's not in Stockholm anymore
[00:12] Andreyvit: oh, yes, surely.
[00:12] Andreyvit: So, it was easy to choose in Amal, but not in Stockholm.
[00:12] Kolya: And that's why Elin will have to fight for Agnes now.
[00:12] Andreyvit: In fact, first she did not even thought about choosing anything.
[00:13] Kolya: She just got what she wanted?
[00:14] Andreyvit: But then, well, you've hinted (many times, so that even complete idiots should notice at last) that Agnes felt something unexpected.
[00:14] Andreyvit: Well, again, probably she did not have all she wanted, but did not notice that either.
[00:14] Andreyvit: Maybe she did not notice until that day.
[00:15] Andreyvit: Maybe she never tried comparing Helen and Elin before, and started doing that after.
[00:15] Kolya: I hinted at what? Oh I think you mean Stevensson, not me.
[00:15] Kolya: And who's Helen?
[00:15] Andreyvit: Emm... all right, sorry.
[00:15] Kolya: You mean Hanna?
[00:15] Andreyvit: Khm. Yes, Hanna
[00:16] Kolya: NP
[00:16] Andreyvit: It's just 5 AM here
[00:16] Kolya: quarter past midnight here
[00:16] Andreyvit: you're lucky.
[00:16] Andreyvit: So, Agnes'es feelings are probably clear at the moment.
[00:17] Andreyvit: Elin is clear too: she wants Agnes back, and is going to fight.
[00:17] Kolya: They are? I don't think so.
[00:17] Kolya: About Agnes
[00:17] Andreyvit: (Elin:) Even if she thinks she's uncertain, in fact she is certain.
[00:18] Kolya: Agnes is very unsure I think
[00:18] Andreyvit: Agnes: she started to think about Elin, and that started to surprise her, because she never expected herself to stop loving Hanna.
[00:19] Kolya: Wait a moment!
[00:19] Andreyvit: She's not unsure yet:
[00:19] Kolya: She didn't stop loving Hanna!
[00:19] Andreyvit: she still is not going to leave Hanna, and se's pretty sure.
[00:19] Andreyvit: Yes, again we agree.
[00:19] Kolya:
[00:20] Kolya: The thing is that she loves Hanna but she finds she has feelings for Elin still.
[00:20] Andreyvit: Hanna's feelings are not clear for me. She might just be worried, or she might hire a killer for Elin - that's equally possible. (Well, not equally, but still.)
[00:21] Kolya: That will become more clear
[00:21] Andreyvit: Yeah, sure.
[00:21] Kolya: I have plans for this
[00:21] Kolya: for Hanna I mean
[00:21] Andreyvit: The most interesting is what this all is going to express.
[00:21] Andreyvit: I mean, again, the idea.
[00:22] Andreyvit: Better say this way:
[00:22] Andreyvit: you're going to make the story go it's natural way. However understanding what way is natural includes understanding some idea, or lesson they must carry out.
[00:23] Andreyvit: You've got an idea for Elin, yes?
[00:23] Kolya: Okay yeah, I understand that.
[00:23] Kolya: Yes I have
[00:23] Kolya: She runs into prolems
[00:23] Andreyvit: About the fact she's careless. Though I don't yet understand how that's going to influence her.
[00:24] Andreyvit: what problems?
[00:24] Kolya: Not anymore
[00:24] Kolya: Ah I don't want to talk about that actually. It's not worked out yet
[00:25] Kolya: Just an idea
[00:25] Andreyvit: But you should know the kind of problems, I mean, is that some everyday troubles or not?
[00:26] Kolya: Okay, well yes it's something that can happen to everyone I guess. She makes the best of it though.
[00:26] Kolya: Anyway, about the lesson that's carried out
[00:27] Kolya: As I said, there will be no big lesson like in FA
[00:27] Kolya: Some smaller ones
[00:27] Andreyvit: well, you probably misunderstand a "big lesson" concept
[00:27] Andreyvit: in FA everything was short-timed, I mean, the whole story took just a few days.
[00:28] Kolya: Yeah FA had a single purpose
[00:28] Kolya: The continuation won't as far as I'm concerned
[00:29] Andreyvit: I mean that "many smaller lessons" form a bigger one, like "how to make your life happy" or smt
[00:29] Andreyvit: yes, it would be a mistake to make a short-timed continuations. "FA 5 years later" should depict much longer period of time.
[00:30] Andreyvit: even because it mensions 5 years in it's title, it can't just tell about 3 days.
[00:30] Kolya: Yeah I also think so.
[00:31] Kolya: The bigger meaning if you want one will be what Moodysson quoted from Morrissey at the beginning of his script
[00:31] Andreyvit: And, you can't be learning something so short and clear like in FA during all those monthes
[00:31] Andreyvit: hm, what was it?
[00:31] Kolya: It's so easy to laugh
it's so easy to hate
it takes guts to be gentle and kind
Morrissey
[00:32] Andreyvit: okay, just fine!
[00:32] Kolya:
[00:32] Kolya: Would you mind if I released this log on fucking-amal.com forums?
[00:32] Andreyvit: Of course not.
[00:33] Kolya: Cool, thanks.
[00:33] Kolya: Hopefully we can meet again here.
[00:33] Kolya: Right now I want to go to bed.
[00:33] Andreyvit: I just think it needs some compression or smt. Who would read such a long thing?..
[00:33] Kolya: Everybody!
[00:33] Andreyvit: Oh, yes, I want to finish my work and have some sleep too
[00:33] Andreyvit: So, see you then!
[00:33] Kolya: Okay, good night Andreyvit!
[00:34] [INFO] Disconnecting from IRC. Click close again to exit now.
[00:34] [QUIT] Disconnected from
irc://mercury.serenia.net/ (
irc://mercury.serenia.net/).
). So continuing in the style of a series of short stories seems just the right approach to my mind. I’m thrilled to hear that Kolya does in fact have ideas for further developments and can’t wait to read them.
). But then, secondly, we’d have to think about how the two of them would have changed after being together for one year (which is a fucking long time when you’re 14/16) in a probably quite hostile environment. How would that have changed Agnes’s and Elin’s ways to think, talk, look, dress, spend their time, and with whom? I agree with Andreyvit that these changes are underestimated. They must be enormous. Which is why I also find the idea that some one night stand with Johan should be the reason for their splitting up unconvincing (I made the point in my first comment on Kolya). But I’ll leave that for now: Because now, thirdly, 
. I do have something to say about your discussion on why Agnes falls in love with Elin originally and vice versa, but I’ll postpone that to another occasion....
) Just one more try to make myself clear:
